If anyone still think HHO works in converting existing vehicles to hydrogen hybrid, they have to convince us with more than 10% savings with loop test results. We still do not quite understand our non-loop test results, but we trust more our loop tests as they reduce most of the unpredictable factors that might affect the testing results.

We apologize if our non-loop test results had misled you in the past.

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http://autofuelsaving.com/info/problem-of-overheating-for-hho-generators

As we mentioned at the above link, the only solution – without using a current-limiting electronic circuit – is to switch to the dry cell configuration. So we built one and installed it on our 2006 Dodge Sprinter cargo van. Here are pictures of the cell installed at the back of the passenger seat and the reservoir/bubbler used for the cell:

So we did some road tests with it and here is the most recent one that was done on April 14, 2009 for a trip to Edmonton. In order to make this test result comparable to the one we did on August 19, 2008 and reported here, we chose to keep the cell OFF for the trip from Calgary to Red Deer and then ON from Red Deer to Edmonton. The cell current was very steady (around 14A), unlike the wet cell design. For or curiocity and convenience, I chose to inject HHO before the air filter this time. The weather on that day was not good: icy snow all the way from Calgary to Edmonton with the temperature around zero degree. That explains why the fuel consumptions were quite high compared to those of Auguest 6 and 19 last year. As usual, we filled the tank to the rim on each fill-up. Anyway, here is the fresh and raw data, together with the last year’s August 19 result listed as well for comparison purposes:

As the baseline test established on August 19, 2008 shows, the second lag of the trip consumed about 20% more fuel than the first lag. With this factor considered, the fuel saving percentage should be:

1- (12.4/15.4) x (9.7/12.6) = 0.38 =========> 38%

With all conditions being kept the same, the fuel consumptions for the first and second lags may not be as big as 23% (1 – 9.7/12.6). Maybe 10 or 15% is more a realistic figure – we need to confirm this. So a saving of 27% might be a more realistic result.

We also did three short distance (46.8KM) round-loop (Calgary to Airdrie and back to Calgary) tests on April 1, 2009 with (1) HHO turned OFF for the first loop and (2) HHO turned ON for the second and (3) HHO cell turned ON but with HHO released into the air rather into the air intake. Interesting enough, the results show not much difference with these three conditions, just like what we tested before. Here are the raw data with both the tank-fill ScanGauge CTE (current trip economy) results listed:

So these short-distance test results are consistent with our previous results – fuel saving seems to pick up when traveling over a relatively long distance (greater than 100KM). Don’t know why it is this but it appears to be so for all our earlier tests. If you can come up with an explanation, please post it using the comment area below. Thanks!

Note that turning the cell ON but releasing HHO to air (with no HHO injection) does not affect the fuel consumption much. This shows the cell does not cause more fuel consumption – at least not for short distance drivings.

Update on June 3, 2009 – Just came back from another trip to Edmonton after getting the van serviced. This time was the baseline test – we took the HHO production and injection completely off to see if the second lag of driving (from Calgary to Red Deer) indeed consumed more fuel than the second lag (from Red Deer to Edmonton). The result was a bit of something unexpected:

As you see from the first two lines above, the second lag does show the second lag consumes more fuel than the first, but not as much as the Aug 19, 2008 result indicated. The weired thing is the Edmonton city driving result – it consumed less fuel than the highway driving, which is certainly not right as we all know city driving should have consumed more fuel than the highway driving.

The only explanation for these results is the fuel stations as we used three different fuel stations: Calgary Shell, Red Deer Shell and Nisku Shell. They are all Shell stations but their pumps may not be the same even if they use the exactly same diesel. I feel the Nisku station pumps more fuel than the first two, that may explain why the fuel consumption results for lines 3 and 4 (obtained after filling both at the same Nisku station) are both smaller than lines 1 and 2.

We may have to avoid the lag trip test in the future and take a long loop test instead to eliminate the pump variations involved with different fuel stations. So the same pump and the almost same route for all future tests – note that it is impossible to make the Edmonton city driving route exactly the same as each trip I go to either the same or different customers. Hopefully the same highway driving for each loop route test is long enough to keep the Edmonton city driving variations to the minimum. The best way, as someone suggested, is to rent a dynamometer and do all these tests inside a dynamometer shop to fully eliminate all unwanted variations – but there is an extra cost involved and that is not a real-life test either.

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We have tried adding neutral plates, but it did not work well. At one time, I used seven (yes, 7) neutral plates and still the temperature reached to 80 degrees C in an hour in a cell made from a black PVC pipe. The commercial SL50 device we bought works better as it has a casing made of stainless steel which makes the heat dissipate better than PVC or any other non-metal materials. But still it becomes very hot. The temperature outside the casing is measured around 50 degrees C – we taped the temperature probe to the SS casing – the inside temperature must be at least 60 degrees.

Using square-wave or pulse to power the HHO cell does not work too well because the critical issue is that the cell is enclosed and heat does not get dissipated easily from the cell even though the power cuts by 50% or lower using pulse.

Anyway, after trying many things including testing various commercial devices, we have made one conclusion…

All the enclosed cells where the electrode assembly is submerged in electrolyte – let us call them “wet cells” – have this overheating problem. And the problem can go out of control as higher the temperature is, higher the current will become, which in return will drive temperature even higher. Making the casing with stainless steel can minimize the problem but will not eliminate it completely – and it is just too expensive to make the casing all with stainless steel. What is the solution then?

We find there is only one solution… go DRY CELL!

A dry cell lets electrolyte pass through between adjacent plates and the gases generated cause electrolyte to rise and go to a container which is located higher than the cell. The container has an opening at the bottom to allow the electrolyte to flow back to the cell. As a result, a flow and circulation of electrolyte takes place, which cools off the whole thing to the greatest extent. In our tests of home-built dry cells (one small and one big), the temperature of electrolyte was maintained at around 50 degrees C – this was not the exterior cell temperature, it was the actual temperature of the electrolyte we measured with accuracy. Here is a typical dry cell we built in operation – the cell is installed on our 2006 Dodge Sprinter 2500 cargo van at the back of the passenger seat and the reservoir and bubbler are placed at a higher level between the passenger and driver seats:

Here is another picture we took when we were testing this dry cell system on the bench before we installed it in our Sprinter van:

Right now, we are dealing with the issue of frozen solution in winter when the weather reaches -25 degrees C or lower. We will report if there is any progress.

Update (March 28, 2009): We did some tests with windshield washer fluid and the rubbing alcohol. See the test results posted at the end of this article here: http://autofuelsaving.com/info/frozen-water-issue-in-hho-generators-in-winter/

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Boy,as a registered user of WaterFuelCell.org, I have not checked their website for a long time. Today I went there and you know what? I found this exploding news that was posted there on Aug 12, 2008. For those who are also interested in Stan Meyer and his dune buggy, here is the link to the post:

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1085

If you want to find related topics on this, go to this section of the WaterFuelCell.org forum: http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=136

Hmmm… Stan Meyer’s patents expired in the year 2007 and now we have found his dune buggy – not only the car but all the original patents, documents, demo cells, electronic circuits and devices are in the hands of the sole owner who is willing to sell.

For those who do not know the difference between Stan’s cell and the conventional water electrolysis cell, we say this: Stan’s cell does not use the conventional water electrolysis process which uses DC to break water molecules. Stan uses a gated pulse to do the job.

As the water in the cell does not contain any electrolyte. It can be the tap water or even distilled water. The current used is very small, smaller than 1 amp. So there is not much heating in the cell, not to say over-heating. As a result, he and some of earliest witnesses of his demo claimed that the cell remain COLD throughout the process – see this link:

http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm

Post your comments below if you know more or want to know more about this topic.

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While carrying the road test, one question kept coming up: Is there a single test that could demonstrate if and how much a HHO generator can save fuel?

The same answer kept coming in: test the gas emission in the exhaust!

Living in Alberta, where vehicle emission testing is not enforced, I do not even know where I can get this type of test here – if you know, please let me know.

Let’s face it. Since the real reason why supplemental hydrogen can save fuel is based on the fact that hydrogen burns clean and hot, it reduces the amount of unburned fuel in the exhaust. It sort of recycle the unburned fuel for more complete burning. So the real and crucial test if this is indeed the case is to test the gases in the emission. If indeed the amount of unburned fuel is reduced as a result of introducing hydrogen to the engine, then the claim is fully warranted.

In fact, I have watched a YouTube video that shows the emission test before and after HHO injection and that HHO does help reduce unburned fuel in the exhaust, but I could not find the video now.

Update: After searching at YouTube, I did not find the one I watched but found this video. Here it is…

If the generator is equipped with a way to adjust the amperage, then it is even better if the emission test is done at several amperage settings so that we have a curve for the vehicle. This way we know how much HHO can give us the highest fuel saving.

So if your local city has this vehicle air emission testing program, please do some tests of this sort to find out “if” and “how much” your HHO generator can save the fuel this way. For those who can get this done, I appreciate if you could post the results here. Thank you!

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http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2008-08-11-tailpipe-exhaust-power-gm_N.htm
http://www.tegpower.com/products.html
http://www.thermo1.com/wasteheatH.htm

Thermoelectric generators are the cutting edge technology of the automotive future. The automotive industry will use them. The middle site has a bolt on device. At this point it’s basically experimental.

Keep up your great work!

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So the issue of how to deal with the fact that the water in my HHO generator in the vehicle pops up every time when the outside temperature goes below zero. So let’s face the issue as we have to.

Everyone knows that water expands when the temperature goes below its freezing point. However, this is not a big issue as long as you meet the following conditions…

1. Your HHO generator casing is made of stainless steel or other strong materials;
2. You leave enough expansion room in the container;
3. You place your HHO generator inside the engine compartment;
4. You do not use a bubbler or if you do use the bubbler its shell is also made of stainless steel or other strong materials.

We know that  when your engine warms up, the temperature of your engine compartment is warm too – if not too hot in some area. So placing your HHO generator inside the engine compartment allows you warm it up along with the hose, backfire arrestor and connectors, etc. Most importantly, when the HHO is turned on, the heat generated will melt the solution inside more quickly than the heat in the engine compartment. So it is better not turn on your HHO generator right away. Wait till the engine is fully warms up.

I simply install a simple ON-OFF switch to the electrical wiring and place the switch in front of me so that I can easily turn on the cell when the engine is fully warmed up.

If your HHO generator casing is not made of stainless steel, then you can consider using the “battery warmer” or even “coffee mug warmer” to keep your cell warm when you need it.

According to my experience, the real concern is not the water inside the HHO generator but the water trapped inside the hose, backfire arrestor, valves and connectors. That is why you must use a water bubbler in winter time as the bubbler can keep the water vapor in the line to a minimum level so that hardly any vapor can condense and get trapped in the plumbing line for freezing.

What about adding salt, vinegar, rubbing alcohol or even windshield washer fluid to the electrolyte?

I am very hesitant to do any of this as it will create other issues. Until someone comes up with a real better solution to the issue based on solid research and testing, I would not add anything to my KOH/distilled water solution.

Monitor the cell temperature and do not allow the generator cell overheat. Overheated cell will produce a lot of water vapor along with the HHO gas. And this is bad for the HHO injection line in winter. You can buy a simple temperature gauge from your local aquarium store or automotive store. I personally like the one I bought from Canadian Tire which is designed to monitor vehicle’s inside and outside temperatures. I simply tape the outside temperature probe to the cell body and place the temperature gauge inside the driver’s compartment. When I see the cell temperature reaches 50 degree celsius, I just turn OFF the HHO production to let it cool.

I find that If I install my HHO generator in a cooler area of the engine compartment, it cools better when my driving speed is higher. So I tend to turn ON the cell when my vehicle is moving and moving fast and turn OFF the cell when it is slow and stops.

One last thing I do… I always turn the cell OFF 20 minutes ahead of time when I know I will park my vehicle in winter for long hours, e.g. more than two hours. I do this to ensure the water trapped inside the injection line is kept minimal so that line is not plugged anywhere.

To recap, this is what I recommend…

1. Do use a bubbler for the HHO gas, do not feed HHO to the air intake directly from the HHO producing cell;
2. Monitor your cell temperature if possible;
3. Install a ON-OFF switch and place it beside the steering wheel;
4. Turn your HHO generator ON only after the engine fully warms up and when your car is moving;
5. Remember to turn the generator OFF at least 15 minutes before you park your vehicle for long hours in a freezing weather.

Do you need to add or comment something? Please use the comment form below…

Update (March 28, 2009): We tested adding windshield washer fluid and rubbing alcohol to the KOH solution. It turns out that the rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol, C3H7OH) works much much better than the windshield washer fluid in both the anti-freezing and the matching of pure KOH solution performance. Windshield washer fluid works in preventing the solution from freezing but HHO production is retarded with time – we watched the cell current dropped from 10A to something around 3A in a matter of few hours of operation. In the case of using the windshield washer liquid, KOH is either neutralized with time or some components in it attach to the electrode surface more readily than water molecules, slowing down the electrolysis reaction. So USE the rubbing alcohol which you can get from any drug store under $3 for a 1L bottle. DO NOT USE windshield washer fluid.

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1. Problem of Overheating for HHO Generators We have tested quite a few HHO generators – whether...

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http://autofuelsaving.com/store/categories/4/dealing-with-sensors/

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Now we just placed an order for HydroxyTech’s EFI1250 Alexis kit to be tested again on our Dodge Sprinter. Their website says that it takes about 3-4 weeks for our order to arrive. It appears to be a better kit than SaveFuel’s SL50 as this one has a power unit which makes electrical connections easier for a non-professional electrician. The best of all is that it has an item called Vehicle Management Unit (VMU) which is essentially a small touch-screen computer that controls HHO cells and also control PWM, MAP/MAF sensor and up to four oxygen sensors. Their VMU can also monitor temperatures for up to two cells in *F or *C selectable. Here is a picture of their kit:

Here is a list of all the items in the kit:

• 1 Bubbler 3×3x10
• 1 Alexis Cell V2
• 1 Backfire Arrester 3LPM
• 1 6′ Fuel-Hose 1/4″
• 6 1/4″ clamps
• 1 Relay 12v (30A)
• 1 Add-A-Circuit ATO (ATM available)
• 2 Inline Fuse 30A
• 2 Holding Clamps
• 4 Relay connectors
• 2 O-ring Power Connectors
• 1 Vehicle Management Unit (VMU)
• 1 Vehicle Power Unit
• 1 VMU wiring Kit (w/connectors)

Please go to HydroxyTech.ca for more info on this kit and other kits and products. Once we get the kit, we will post test results here.

Update (Nov 7, 2008): I waited for two full months and finally I received the kit today – I mean yesterday as it is alreay almost 3 hours past the midnight

Anyway, spent some time trying to condition the electrode as suggested by HydroxyTech manual. And almost at the end of one of the conditioning cycle, I shot a video and uploaded to YouTube. In fact, this is my first YouTube video:

As you can see, it produces quite a lot of oxyhydrogen with only about 9.7A current powered by a car battery charger. The electrolyte is KOH solution (concentration is about 5g/500ml). After 3 cycles of electrode conditioning, the cell solution is still very clear.

I will do 3 more cycle of conditioning and then will measure oxyhydrogen production in real time and real numbers (L/min). After all this is done, I will install it on our cargo van.

Update (Nov 8, 2008): Measured HHO production rate today without using the pulse-width module (PWM) that comes with the VMU of the kit: roughly 1L/min. Not 2L/min as the kit manual describes. Will find out how to reach the 2L/min capacity. I plan to install it on a gas-engine car (1999 Hyundai Elantra), not our cargo van as we may have to sell the cargo van pretty soon and I do not want to mess with the latter’s sensors. Will see what to do.

Update (Nov 9, 2008): Have figured out why my Alexis cell from HydroxyTech produces only 1L/min HHO rather than 2L/min HHO. The KOH concentration – I did not weigh the KOH used in the test. I had quite a few fruit jars of KOH leftover solutions that I accumulated in the past doing KOH dilution. So I just added some and measure the cold start amperage to estimate the concentration. Turned out the cold start amperage should be 10A, not 5A as I thought to be. If the cold start amperage is 10A, then it should increase to 20A when the cell gets hot in working condition – reaching the normal working current designed by HydroxyTech.

Note that most battery chargers cannot give out 20A as 10A is the highest capacity. So I will do the electrode conditioning again using a higher KOH concentration and power the cell alive using a car battery (rather than a charger) while the engine is running.

Update (Nov 18, 2008): Installed on our 1999 Hyundai Elantra. Had some problems with the kit I received. Had to send some components back for replacement. Will continue the test after receiving the replacement.

Found that it is not an accurate way to measure fuel consumption by filling the tank until the pump stops by itself if you only use less than 10% fuel of the fuel tank. Unlike our 2006 Dodge Sprinter, the 1999 Hyundai Elantra has a inner cover in the fuel tank opening – even when I want to fill the tank to the rim there is no way I can see the fuel level. Strange enough, after driving for about 40 kilometers for the testing and filling the tank either when the pump stopped or when seeing the gasoline spilled from the tank, it was always the second filling requied less fuel. In future tests, I will carry a filled-up 5-liter gasoline container and drive the car until it stops (use this as the fuel baseline) and then fill the tank with 5 liters of fuel from the carry-on container. This way I just record the kilometers needed to empty the tank to the same level (when the car stops running). This tank-depletion method of calculating fuel consumption should be more accurate than the tank-fill approach. Note that my Hyundai Elantra is a manual car which makes it possible for me to drive it until the engine stops.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_Fuel_Injection

Basically, in a research carried out by NASA’s Lewis Research Center in 1977 on a 1969 Cadillac engine, they found that adding hydrogen as a supplemental fuel would allow the engine to run at a leaner fuel/air condition. Without adding hydrogen, the stoichiometric ratio of gasoline/air is 1 to 14.7 by mass. With hydrogen added, the engine can run at a gasoline/air ratio of 1 to 20 or more, which is impossible without the adding of hydrogen. Leaner ratio means less fuel needed, which is exactly what we want.

If you cannot understand the technical terms, then the following post entry on the chemistry of Brown’s gas (another name for HHO) explains the best in simple-to-understand terms:

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/showthread.php?tid=814&pid=6911#pid6911

More resources will be posted here as we find them.

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