If anyone still think HHO works in converting existing vehicles to hydrogen hybrid, they have to convince us with more than 10% savings with loop test results. We still do not quite understand our non-loop test results, but we trust more our loop tests as they reduce most of the unpredictable factors that might affect the testing results.

We apologize if our non-loop test results had misled you in the past.

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http://autofuelsaving.com/info/problem-of-overheating-for-hho-generators

As we mentioned at the above link, the only solution – without using a current-limiting electronic circuit – is to switch to the dry cell configuration. So we built one and installed it on our 2006 Dodge Sprinter cargo van. Here are pictures of the cell installed at the back of the passenger seat and the reservoir/bubbler used for the cell:

So we did some road tests with it and here is the most recent one that was done on April 14, 2009 for a trip to Edmonton. In order to make this test result comparable to the one we did on August 19, 2008 and reported here, we chose to keep the cell OFF for the trip from Calgary to Red Deer and then ON from Red Deer to Edmonton. The cell current was very steady (around 14A), unlike the wet cell design. For or curiocity and convenience, I chose to inject HHO before the air filter this time. The weather on that day was not good: icy snow all the way from Calgary to Edmonton with the temperature around zero degree. That explains why the fuel consumptions were quite high compared to those of Auguest 6 and 19 last year. As usual, we filled the tank to the rim on each fill-up. Anyway, here is the fresh and raw data, together with the last year’s August 19 result listed as well for comparison purposes:

As the baseline test established on August 19, 2008 shows, the second lag of the trip consumed about 20% more fuel than the first lag. With this factor considered, the fuel saving percentage should be:

1- (12.4/15.4) x (9.7/12.6) = 0.38 =========> 38%

With all conditions being kept the same, the fuel consumptions for the first and second lags may not be as big as 23% (1 – 9.7/12.6). Maybe 10 or 15% is more a realistic figure – we need to confirm this. So a saving of 27% might be a more realistic result.

We also did three short distance (46.8KM) round-loop (Calgary to Airdrie and back to Calgary) tests on April 1, 2009 with (1) HHO turned OFF for the first loop and (2) HHO turned ON for the second and (3) HHO cell turned ON but with HHO released into the air rather into the air intake. Interesting enough, the results show not much difference with these three conditions, just like what we tested before. Here are the raw data with both the tank-fill ScanGauge CTE (current trip economy) results listed:

So these short-distance test results are consistent with our previous results – fuel saving seems to pick up when traveling over a relatively long distance (greater than 100KM). Don’t know why it is this but it appears to be so for all our earlier tests. If you can come up with an explanation, please post it using the comment area below. Thanks!

Note that turning the cell ON but releasing HHO to air (with no HHO injection) does not affect the fuel consumption much. This shows the cell does not cause more fuel consumption – at least not for short distance drivings.

Update on June 3, 2009 – Just came back from another trip to Edmonton after getting the van serviced. This time was the baseline test – we took the HHO production and injection completely off to see if the second lag of driving (from Calgary to Red Deer) indeed consumed more fuel than the second lag (from Red Deer to Edmonton). The result was a bit of something unexpected:

As you see from the first two lines above, the second lag does show the second lag consumes more fuel than the first, but not as much as the Aug 19, 2008 result indicated. The weired thing is the Edmonton city driving result – it consumed less fuel than the highway driving, which is certainly not right as we all know city driving should have consumed more fuel than the highway driving.

The only explanation for these results is the fuel stations as we used three different fuel stations: Calgary Shell, Red Deer Shell and Nisku Shell. They are all Shell stations but their pumps may not be the same even if they use the exactly same diesel. I feel the Nisku station pumps more fuel than the first two, that may explain why the fuel consumption results for lines 3 and 4 (obtained after filling both at the same Nisku station) are both smaller than lines 1 and 2.

We may have to avoid the lag trip test in the future and take a long loop test instead to eliminate the pump variations involved with different fuel stations. So the same pump and the almost same route for all future tests – note that it is impossible to make the Edmonton city driving route exactly the same as each trip I go to either the same or different customers. Hopefully the same highway driving for each loop route test is long enough to keep the Edmonton city driving variations to the minimum. The best way, as someone suggested, is to rent a dynamometer and do all these tests inside a dynamometer shop to fully eliminate all unwanted variations – but there is an extra cost involved and that is not a real-life test either.

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We have tried adding neutral plates, but it did not work well. At one time, I used seven (yes, 7) neutral plates and still the temperature reached to 80 degrees C in an hour in a cell made from a black PVC pipe. The commercial SL50 device we bought works better as it has a casing made of stainless steel which makes the heat dissipate better than PVC or any other non-metal materials. But still it becomes very hot. The temperature outside the casing is measured around 50 degrees C – we taped the temperature probe to the SS casing – the inside temperature must be at least 60 degrees.

Using square-wave or pulse to power the HHO cell does not work too well because the critical issue is that the cell is enclosed and heat does not get dissipated easily from the cell even though the power cuts by 50% or lower using pulse.

Anyway, after trying many things including testing various commercial devices, we have made one conclusion…

All the enclosed cells where the electrode assembly is submerged in electrolyte – let us call them “wet cells” – have this overheating problem. And the problem can go out of control as higher the temperature is, higher the current will become, which in return will drive temperature even higher. Making the casing with stainless steel can minimize the problem but will not eliminate it completely – and it is just too expensive to make the casing all with stainless steel. What is the solution then?

We find there is only one solution… go DRY CELL!

A dry cell lets electrolyte pass through between adjacent plates and the gases generated cause electrolyte to rise and go to a container which is located higher than the cell. The container has an opening at the bottom to allow the electrolyte to flow back to the cell. As a result, a flow and circulation of electrolyte takes place, which cools off the whole thing to the greatest extent. In our tests of home-built dry cells (one small and one big), the temperature of electrolyte was maintained at around 50 degrees C – this was not the exterior cell temperature, it was the actual temperature of the electrolyte we measured with accuracy. Here is a typical dry cell we built in operation – the cell is installed on our 2006 Dodge Sprinter 2500 cargo van at the back of the passenger seat and the reservoir and bubbler are placed at a higher level between the passenger and driver seats:

Here is another picture we took when we were testing this dry cell system on the bench before we installed it in our Sprinter van:

Right now, we are dealing with the issue of frozen solution in winter when the weather reaches -25 degrees C or lower. We will report if there is any progress.

Update (March 28, 2009): We did some tests with windshield washer fluid and the rubbing alcohol. See the test results posted at the end of this article here: http://autofuelsaving.com/info/frozen-water-issue-in-hho-generators-in-winter/

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Boy,as a registered user of WaterFuelCell.org, I have not checked their website for a long time. Today I went there and you know what? I found this exploding news that was posted there on Aug 12, 2008. For those who are also interested in Stan Meyer and his dune buggy, here is the link to the post:

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1085

If you want to find related topics on this, go to this section of the WaterFuelCell.org forum: http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=136

Hmmm… Stan Meyer’s patents expired in the year 2007 and now we have found his dune buggy – not only the car but all the original patents, documents, demo cells, electronic circuits and devices are in the hands of the sole owner who is willing to sell.

For those who do not know the difference between Stan’s cell and the conventional water electrolysis cell, we say this: Stan’s cell does not use the conventional water electrolysis process which uses DC to break water molecules. Stan uses a gated pulse to do the job.

As the water in the cell does not contain any electrolyte. It can be the tap water or even distilled water. The current used is very small, smaller than 1 amp. So there is not much heating in the cell, not to say over-heating. As a result, he and some of earliest witnesses of his demo claimed that the cell remain COLD throughout the process – see this link:

http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm

Post your comments below if you know more or want to know more about this topic.

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While carrying the road test, one question kept coming up: Is there a single test that could demonstrate if and how much a HHO generator can save fuel?

The same answer kept coming in: test the gas emission in the exhaust!

Living in Alberta, where vehicle emission testing is not enforced, I do not even know where I can get this type of test here – if you know, please let me know.

Let’s face it. Since the real reason why supplemental hydrogen can save fuel is based on the fact that hydrogen burns clean and hot, it reduces the amount of unburned fuel in the exhaust. It sort of recycle the unburned fuel for more complete burning. So the real and crucial test if this is indeed the case is to test the gases in the emission. If indeed the amount of unburned fuel is reduced as a result of introducing hydrogen to the engine, then the claim is fully warranted.

In fact, I have watched a YouTube video that shows the emission test before and after HHO injection and that HHO does help reduce unburned fuel in the exhaust, but I could not find the video now.

Update: After searching at YouTube, I did not find the one I watched but found this video. Here it is…

If the generator is equipped with a way to adjust the amperage, then it is even better if the emission test is done at several amperage settings so that we have a curve for the vehicle. This way we know how much HHO can give us the highest fuel saving.

So if your local city has this vehicle air emission testing program, please do some tests of this sort to find out “if” and “how much” your HHO generator can save the fuel this way. For those who can get this done, I appreciate if you could post the results here. Thank you!

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So the issue of how to deal with the fact that the water in my HHO generator in the vehicle pops up every time when the outside temperature goes below zero. So let’s face the issue as we have to.

Everyone knows that water expands when the temperature goes below its freezing point. However, this is not a big issue as long as you meet the following conditions…

1. Your HHO generator casing is made of stainless steel or other strong materials;
2. You leave enough expansion room in the container;
3. You place your HHO generator inside the engine compartment;
4. You do not use a bubbler or if you do use the bubbler its shell is also made of stainless steel or other strong materials.

We know that  when your engine warms up, the temperature of your engine compartment is warm too – if not too hot in some area. So placing your HHO generator inside the engine compartment allows you warm it up along with the hose, backfire arrestor and connectors, etc. Most importantly, when the HHO is turned on, the heat generated will melt the solution inside more quickly than the heat in the engine compartment. So it is better not turn on your HHO generator right away. Wait till the engine is fully warms up.

I simply install a simple ON-OFF switch to the electrical wiring and place the switch in front of me so that I can easily turn on the cell when the engine is fully warmed up.

If your HHO generator casing is not made of stainless steel, then you can consider using the “battery warmer” or even “coffee mug warmer” to keep your cell warm when you need it.

According to my experience, the real concern is not the water inside the HHO generator but the water trapped inside the hose, backfire arrestor, valves and connectors. That is why you must use a water bubbler in winter time as the bubbler can keep the water vapor in the line to a minimum level so that hardly any vapor can condense and get trapped in the plumbing line for freezing.

What about adding salt, vinegar, rubbing alcohol or even windshield washer fluid to the electrolyte?

I am very hesitant to do any of this as it will create other issues. Until someone comes up with a real better solution to the issue based on solid research and testing, I would not add anything to my KOH/distilled water solution.

Monitor the cell temperature and do not allow the generator cell overheat. Overheated cell will produce a lot of water vapor along with the HHO gas. And this is bad for the HHO injection line in winter. You can buy a simple temperature gauge from your local aquarium store or automotive store. I personally like the one I bought from Canadian Tire which is designed to monitor vehicle’s inside and outside temperatures. I simply tape the outside temperature probe to the cell body and place the temperature gauge inside the driver’s compartment. When I see the cell temperature reaches 50 degree celsius, I just turn OFF the HHO production to let it cool.

I find that If I install my HHO generator in a cooler area of the engine compartment, it cools better when my driving speed is higher. So I tend to turn ON the cell when my vehicle is moving and moving fast and turn OFF the cell when it is slow and stops.

One last thing I do… I always turn the cell OFF 20 minutes ahead of time when I know I will park my vehicle in winter for long hours, e.g. more than two hours. I do this to ensure the water trapped inside the injection line is kept minimal so that line is not plugged anywhere.

To recap, this is what I recommend…

1. Do use a bubbler for the HHO gas, do not feed HHO to the air intake directly from the HHO producing cell;
2. Monitor your cell temperature if possible;
3. Install a ON-OFF switch and place it beside the steering wheel;
4. Turn your HHO generator ON only after the engine fully warms up and when your car is moving;
5. Remember to turn the generator OFF at least 15 minutes before you park your vehicle for long hours in a freezing weather.

Do you need to add or comment something? Please use the comment form below…

Update (March 28, 2009): We tested adding windshield washer fluid and rubbing alcohol to the KOH solution. It turns out that the rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol, C3H7OH) works much much better than the windshield washer fluid in both the anti-freezing and the matching of pure KOH solution performance. Windshield washer fluid works in preventing the solution from freezing but HHO production is retarded with time – we watched the cell current dropped from 10A to something around 3A in a matter of few hours of operation. In the case of using the windshield washer liquid, KOH is either neutralized with time or some components in it attach to the electrode surface more readily than water molecules, slowing down the electrolysis reaction. So USE the rubbing alcohol which you can get from any drug store under $3 for a 1L bottle. DO NOT USE windshield washer fluid.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_Fuel_Injection

Basically, in a research carried out by NASA’s Lewis Research Center in 1977 on a 1969 Cadillac engine, they found that adding hydrogen as a supplemental fuel would allow the engine to run at a leaner fuel/air condition. Without adding hydrogen, the stoichiometric ratio of gasoline/air is 1 to 14.7 by mass. With hydrogen added, the engine can run at a gasoline/air ratio of 1 to 20 or more, which is impossible without the adding of hydrogen. Leaner ratio means less fuel needed, which is exactly what we want.

If you cannot understand the technical terms, then the following post entry on the chemistry of Brown’s gas (another name for HHO) explains the best in simple-to-understand terms:

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/showthread.php?tid=814&pid=6911#pid6911

More resources will be posted here as we find them.

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OK, it took me a weekend to get the home-made HHO generator installed, re-built and reinstalled. The main reason for this prolonged process was because I set the operating current to be around 10 amps, rather than 5 amps or less as recommended. 10 amp setting was for the commercial device and it made the cell too hot with this setting.

Anyway, I filled the diesel tank to the rim this time and onwards – to be more accurate to measure how much fuel I will need to add to the rim next time.

I will make a trip from Calgary to Edmonton on Wednesday and I will take the same test as I did with the commercial device last time. I will report here as soon as the test results come out. Here are two pictures I took during the install:

Note that in the cell the electrolyte color was red and it was probably due to too high current (about 10 amps at the time of picture) causing my non-316L stainless wire to corrode fast. Another possibility was Jack who made the electrode for me used a green-colored plexi glass sheet to make electrode insulator/holder and the high-pH electrolyte might have caused the desolved green-color to turn pink. Will use a totally clear plexi glass sheet to make the electrode insulator/holder next time.

As you can see, I have listened to Bill’s advice to insert a threaded elbow fitting from the inside of the rubber air intake hose and tighten it up from the outside using a flexible plumbing hose. It is interesting to mention that I measured the pressure there while the engine was idling by connecting a digital pressure gauge and it turned out that the pressure was -3.8 hPa, not positive pressure but vacuum before hooking up to the HHO generator. It is kind of surprise but it was indeed so – hope someone out there can explain why (note: now we know that it was because the turbo was not kicked on). Anyway, it is good for us as we want the HHO intake to have some vacuum pressure so that HHO can be sucked into the engine rather than diffuse into it.

One last thing, a one-way air check valve must be installed inside the bubbler jar so that no water can be pushed into the electrolyzer when the engine is shut off (electricity cut off). It appears that the cooling of the electrolyzer creates an pressure inbalance between the bubbler (no quick change in pressure) and the electrolyzer (reduced pressure). The pressure inside the bubbler jar is great enough to slowly push all the water in it into the electrolyzer!

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We have almost finished assembled one of this home-made device with the help of Jack Yan. We say “almost finished” because we have trouble finding these two parts in Alberta, Canada:

1. Barb elbow – it looks like this
2. Adjustable dripper – can be ordered here according to Ozzie’s ebook
3. Grade 316L stainless steel wire

If you happen to know where to get these items in Calgary or any other places in Canada, please let us know. Thanks!

Note 1: This is an update entered on September 11, 2008. We found a swivel elbow made of plated brass that works better than any plastic barb elbows out there. Stainless steel swivel elbows are better but more expensive than brass ones. The threaded end can screw tightly on the fruit jar’s plastic cap by drilling a hole slightly smaller than the male end of the elbow. As for the adjustable dripper we purchased it online. We also found a local store that sells 316L stainless steel wires, sheets, pipes, etc. Thank all those who help us locate these items!

Note 2: after finding out the non-316L stainless steel wire corroded fast, I have purchased some other DIY plans to see what else we can use as electrodes. Click here to check these DIY plans for building oxy hydrogen generators we have bought and now recommend. One is easier than Ozzie’s version to build. Another one is more sophisticated and much harder to replicate. Beside fruit jars, I have seen people use water filter container to build the cell.

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The computer in a vehicle is also called the Electronic Control Unit (ECU). It controls the fuel injection system, ignition timing, and the idle speed control system. The ECU also interrupts the operation of the air conditioning and EGR systems, and controls power to the fuel pump (through the control relay). The ECU consists of an 8-bit microprocessor, random access memory (RAM), read only memory (ROM), and an input/output interface.

When a fuel saving device is installed, such as an oxy hydrogen generator, the petroleum based fuel is burned more completely. One of the results of this is that there is more oxygen (and less unburned hydrocarbons) in the exhaust stream. This is a good thing, and is in fact, what we are trying to achieve. However, the computer will perceive this condition as a “too lean” air/fuel mix. In other words, what is now a desirable condition in the exhaust, will be interpreted as “not enough fuel”, and the computer will direct the fuel injectors to increase the amount of fuel being pumped into the engine.

The result is that the oxygen sensor and computer prevent efficient combustion from occurring! In other words, it cancels out most of the improvement we have just made.

The Solution

The oxygen sensor “tells” the computer what the oxygen content is by providing a voltage on it’s signal wire between 0 and 1 volt. 450 millivolts (.45 volts) means that the fuel/air mixture is correct. Higher values means the mix is rich (has too much gas), and lower voltages means the mix is lean. By adding voltage to the sensor’s output, we can compensate for the additional oxygen in the exhaust.

The Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer (EFIE), (not MAP – Manifold Absolute Presure – Sensor Enhancer), does exactly this. It adds a floating voltage to the top of whatever the oxygen sensor is putting out. It has an adjustment that allows you to control, to within a few millivolts, the amount of this added voltage. This allows the computer to be unaware of the additional oxygen content of the exhaust, and the oxy hydrogen generator can now achieve it’s full potential in fuel savings.

Most cars have oxygen sensors both before and after the catalytic converter. The ones downstream from the converter do not need to be treated. Their data is used to determine when the converter has gone bad, but are not used in the air/fuel calculations. EFIEs are only needed for all upstream oxygen sensors.

If you are purchasing an oxy hydrogen generator for a fuel injected vehicle, click here to check these commercial available electronic fuel injection enhancer products.

We do not plan to implement this EFIE device in the initial testing stage on our Dodge Sprinter as we’d like to see how much it saves fuel without using the device – I was told that an EFIE does not help much with fuel saving for Dodge Sprinter as its oxygen sensor is a wide band sensor.

Note that Hydroxy Tech offers a device called VMU (vehicle management unit) in their complete HHO generator kits to deal with oxygen sensor, MAP sensor and MAF sensor.

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